A designer dog sounds cool, the term seems to denote its better than a 'generic' pure breed. People will tell me they have a pure bred puggle, or cockapoo, or labradoodle etc etc. I try really hard not to laugh at them.
No to start off with, I am all for the intelligent creation of new breeds. I am not one of those people who say 'all the breeds we have today are all the breeds we should ever have'. But the creation of a new breed is not simply the crossing of two badly bred dogs, coming up with a catchy name and starting up. Silken Windhounds are a new breed. They very carefully bred dogs together with a specific aim in mind. They bred only healthy mentally sound dogs together. They didn't keep just breeding two breeds together, mangling the names of both breeds, and selling the pups in the local flea market.
So why do people cross breed dogs? Very simply, because idiots buy them. Pure and simple. If people would do their research. Then these people would stop doing it.
Myths about designer dogs:
Hybrid vigour- this only applies to actual crossbreeding of species, not within the species. You are just as likely to get the genetic diseases of both breeds, as the dogs used in creating these pups are NOT from good sound breed standard breeding stock.
That the breeder can tell you what the pup will grow up to be like -this is just not true. It takes many generations to predict type. Even top show breeders who spend much time and effort to producing dogs off all the dame type, will get variations.
Crossing breeds insures you get the best of both breeds- you are just as likely to get the worst of both breed traits.
Make better pets than purebreds-picking the right dog is the key to having a great pet. Show breeds, or working breeders will have dogs in their litters for what ever reason don't have what it takes to become a working dog or a show dog, but does have what it takes to make someone a loving pet.
Designer dogs are rare-shelters are full of cross bred dogs.
You will notice on these sites they only show puppies. All puppies are adorable. Take puggle puppies, they are very adorable, but google them. Most are hideous as adults. 99.99% of the websites I have came across that offer pups for sale over the internet. The contracts are silly or non existent. The health of these pups is never guaranteed. There is no stipulation that if the new owners cannot keep the pups that the breeder will take them back. These breeders are as bad as millers.
Now there are breeders out there particularly with goldendoodles that are breeding F4 or higher goldendoodles. The problem is that a new breed needs a new name. No one is going to respect a new breed that is just the mangling of the old breed's names. A new breed needs a NEW name. Its only common sense.
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Hey although what you say is for the most part true about crossbreeds, I'd just like to say that there ARE some respectable breeders of Goldendoodles and Labradoodles out there since they were first developed in Australia in the 70's as seeing eye dogs for those who are allergic. Yes some purebred standard poodles have managed to go through the tests but unfortunately, poodles are too... single-minded? Or so I've heard...
We own a 2 year old Goldendoodle (3/4 poodle, 1/4 golden) and we had the occasion to see what they look like full grown since a friend of ours had one, and the breeders were kind enough to send pictures of full grown dogs.
Although I do agree that the whole 'designer dog' fad is ludicrous, especially the BYB that take advantage of the boom going on.
The idea of Great Danes being bred under the age of 2 makes me nauseous.
The Australians abandoned the labra/golden/doodle crosses because of inconsistency of type and temperament. Once the North American market got wind of this new designer breed it started up again because it sounded legitimate. They are not able to breed oodle to oodle and get oodle. They get whatever the genetic mish mash produces. They discovered that they could only get the breed they wanted by crossing two purebred dogs(and even that was inconsistent) - this does not another purebred make.
I own a breed that was developed from several breeds about 100 years ago. Breed development is not only fluid externally with cross bred dogs(carefully done) but also internally with purebreds looking much differnt now than they did even 25 years ago.
Many popular breeds today are less than 100 years old and are the result of careful selection and intelligent planning.
Silken windhounds aren't that new. I knew about them back in the '80s (I knew one of the people who helped develop them). Originally they were a whippet/sheltie cross, by somebody who wanted a longhaired whippet that could withstand the cold better. Now I believe some people also use border collies.
But you know, in my opinion, didn't most breeds start out as "designer crosses?" Dobes were originally part German black-and-tan terriers (forgot the other breeds used), for example. And remember, something like 90% of all dog breeds that ever existed are extinct now...
Kim
http://www.barkingatwindmills.blogspot.com
PS!! I like your blog, too:^)
I know that there are nice labradoodles somewhere but I have yet to meet one. I dont know if its just because the people who would not normally own a dog decide a labradoodle is fool proof and therefore dont train them or if they are just crazy by nature. I have known both poodles and labs that have been fabulous, but they need lots of training and these breeders advertise these dogs as family pets like they are ready made! Ive met so many owners that were like "I bought this dog now its huge and I have to shave it every month or it cant see and I just cant control it!" Both breeds are usually fond of having a job and these fluffy monsters rarely seem to get any job besides babysitter. I feel bad for them bc so many end up in shelters bc breeders mislead people or the dogs had bad quality parents etc.
the boss bitch:
I wasn't claiming Golden doodles as a legitimate breed, I was only sharing my personal experience... The reason we got him in the first place was that my grandma wanted a poodle, but we couldn't stand the bark of a purebred. And sadly most of my family is allergic to cats and dogs therefore the need of having hypoallergenic animals
I also DO own a 100% Irish Terrier bitch and I know it's one of the older terrier breeds and that to create a breed it takes time, lots of patience and rigourous selection. And even then depending on the breeder and the epoch the traits that are desirable in a breed change, thus individuals that would have previously beens selected, are put aside from the breeding shed, which is the main reason why my little Geisha is probably quite different from her first ancestor (although amazingly from ppictures I've seen there hasn't been THAT many changes (if my memory isn't too faulty))
I'm a huge fan of Goldendoodles in the salon - really, I am - but I think people need to stop trying to pass them off as this new, classy, trendy breed. It's not a breed, it's a cross between two things. I'm not going to call my f3 misguided Schnauzer/Dachshunds mix a Schnaushund, nor do I really consider a Golden Retriever/Poodle mix it's own foreign entity.
I think giving crosses trendy names is just salesmanship. People buy things they think are "new" and "exciting". You also notice that these things really take off in puppy shops -- it's all about what sells.
Bubba'sMom,
I own three Silken Windhounds, soon to be four.
You can read more about them at www.silkenwindhounds.org which is the International Silken Windhound Society website. The origins started in 1984 with a dream by Francie Stull, Kristull Borzoi and Silken Windhounds. More can be read about it all at the ISWS website. Since that time, Silkens have "invaded" the world, as they are now found in the US, Bahama's, Finland, Jordan, Germany, Japan, Sweden, Slovenia, Switzerland, South Africa, the Netherlands, Canada, and the UK. They are accepted by the Finnish, Swedish, and Slovenian kennel clubs, as well as accepted and shown here in the US at the International All Breed Canine Association and Rarities shows. They course, they straight race, they are working as Service Dogs (diabetic alert, seizure alert, cancer detection, and more!), Therapy Dogs, Animal Assisted Crisis Response Dogs through the Red Cross, and anything else you can ask of them.
They are a wonderful little breed of Sighthound and are well known to crawl into peoples hearts with ease. The ISWS standard calls for them to be between 18 and 24 inches, so they are about the size of a small Saluki girl. They get along wonderfully with Saluki too! My Silkens and Saluki LOVE playing with each other, constantly racing one another, wrestling, or just snuggling up with each other. My female, Miss Kitty, and my crème Saluki boy, Daavii, are the best of buds, as is Kivah (Saluki) and Maverick (Silken).
The breed was formed starting with Stillwater Kristull Peacock, a daughter of Eng Am Ch.Stillwater Virginia Reel who was bred to Windsprite Autumnal Xenon (a Longhaired Whippet), whose litter became the foundation to the Silken Windhound breed. It is because of the LHW in their genes that every single Silken is MDR1 tested at birth, as the LHW were a "creation" by Walter Wheeler who crossed Shelties and Whippets together (though he denies it, it was proven by DNA testing). ISWS also requires every single puppy be DNA tested at birth. Though there are people who say they are not a "breed", there are now F4, F5, and F6's of Silkens being bred to Silkens, with a closed stud book, and the wonderful little breed of Sighthounds are here to stay. They don't shed like a lot of the larger longhaired canines do, they handle all sorts of weather very well, they LOVE the water and are often called "swamphounds" for their love of water, and are generally found wagging their tails and eager to meet any new person who might want to pet them. All colors are accepted, though brindle seems to be the most predominant color.
There is an official Silken Windhound Rescue through the ISWS. As of now, all Silkens placed into new homes are accounted for and anyone who "claims" they have Silkens in rescue do NOT have true Silkens. More can be read on the ISWS page under Rescue.
There is a so-called "rescue" out of CA who claims that they do have Silkens but.. well... bait and switch ring a bell? They're puppymillers posing as a rescue and they need to be shut down. www.gentlegiantnews.com for the true information on them. They also support an even bigger puppy miller who supplies them (groaning).
'Hybrid vigour- this only applies to actual crossbreeding of species, not within the species"
I like your blog, but I don't agree with this statement. I breed sheep, and we cross-breed sheep to get hybrid vigor for meat animals. It is very true that smart cross-breeding of different breeds in the same species will result in animals with hybrid vigor.
Of course, not all cross-breeding results in hybrid vigor. Outbreeding depression is the result when the offspring inherit such different traits from their parents which makes them unfit for survival.
Designer Dog= Fancy Name for a MUTT
Yes our breeds were all developed and are what they are now, and you can argue that they are all mutts in far generations, but they breed true and have for GENERATIONS and CENTURIES.
I have NO issues with people that take on the task of developing a new breed or gaining recognition for a breed new to a country. BUT ONLY when done appropriately.
Doing the research, and documenting a standard, and developing a HEALTH TESTING schedule. As well as maintaining appropriate breeding records, pedigrees....etc.
There is a RIGHT way to go about it, not just put "Butch" and "Bertha" out in the yard and call the puppies a rare or NEW breed.
I also want to touch on labradoodles....and goldendoodles...one thing i have NEVER understood how a HIGH shed dog and a LOW shed dog make "no" shed dogs, or no dander...or what have you....just not adding up for me!
It always cracks me up to read these websites (bad breeders) where they day they don't inbreed or linebreed, they only outcross....and that just makes me go...OH NO WONDER THEY LOOK LIKE THAT!!!
Understanding linebreeding and "inbreeding" and OUTCROSSING is IMO Important for ANY breeder, no matter the breed. To understand what linebreeding can and can't get you and what outcrossing can and can't get you is of the UTMOST importance!
This blog is SUPERB, keep up the good work!
Sarah
www.vintageboxers.com
hey, thanks for mentioning silken windhounds. they seem like a cool breed that a lot of thought has gone into. (i researched them after reading your blog post!) the borzoi is a really great breed; i got to interact with them in russia a fair bit and they are so elegant and dignified.
actually it's funny, i have a sheltie that isn't particularly typey (he's from working lines but even so he looks a bit more like a smaller collie....) i had to do a double take after looking at the silken windhounds though, because my sheltie actually kind of looks like one! a breed i'll have to keep my eyes on.
love your blog, BTW!
I work with a lady that thinks it is sooo cool to breed her Yorkies with Chihuahua's. I talked to her about being responsible and for the females health not to breed her all the time. Well, she finally listened when her "prized" female died 2 days before she was due with a new litter. I have her down to two spayed females. (by the way, I have rotwiellers. I just spayed my female because she didn't pass OFA.)
Kerri,
I just found your blog today after fugly linked it to her fhotd blog. You should probably do some homework before posting truths about common myths.
you posted:
Hybrid vigour- this only applies to actual crossbreeding of species, not within the species.
While I admire what you do, I think it is important as someone who is trying to educate others to do some background research yourself. You see if you can cross two animals they actually ARE the same species. Scientifically speeking, two animals are of the same species if you can cross them and produce fertile offspring. I have provided a link where you can check it out for yourself. As an educator you should really try to be more well versed on a subject before teaching it.
Genetics are confusing, I understand that and don't fault you for trying to learn about them. However, before you start telling other people what to do you should really make sure that you have accurate information yourself.
http://www.biochem.northwestern.edu/holmgren/Glossary/Definitions/Def-S/species.html
Your link didn't work. And as genetics is what I am in school for, I do know a fair bit. There is some debate in the 'circles' of what a hybrid is. A true hybrid is not likely to be fertile. A mule is a hybrid. Crossing within species is not considered by most non lay persons as a hybrid. (now that there is talk of accepting dogs as the same species as wolves, a dog/wolf cross would no longer be a hybrid either)
I had three poodles (I say had because just put my 14 year old standard to sleep on Monday :( ...). All three came from breeders who bred championed dogs.
The 14 year old came from a breeder with one bitch she bred once. She had 15 in this litter and there is nothing more fun than a room full of tiny poodle puppies IMO. We fell in love with him and took him home to be a spoiled rotten family member.
Our 4 year old mini female came from a different breeder. She has championed parents, but came out a little less perfect than hoped for, lol. She could never cut it in a show ring, but she has made a wonderful addition to our family. We wouldn't change her for the world
My one year old mini male was one of two the breeder kept in hopes of becoming a show dog. She decided that as handsome and wonderful as he is, his brother was just a bit better suited to the show life so the "show-ring reject" came home with us. He is working in agility and is a dear little dog with what our vet describes only as "the most perfect mouth". LOL.
The first reactions we get with them are "are you going to breed them to make a cute puppy? (insert poodle cross-breed here)s are soooo KYOOT" or "are these the things that make (instert poodle cross-breed here)?".
We got these dogs with the understanding that as perfect as they are/were to us, they should not be reproduced (or turned into designer fads). We had to go WELL out of our way to find a decent breeder of "real" poodles, which is sad because they are a wonderful breed.
As a full-on poodle supporter, the designer fad makes me really sad. I love my poodles just as non-cocka/labra/puggled as they are.
"They are accepted by the Finnish, Swedish, and Slovenian kennel clubs"
What? I have before me the Finnish Kennel Club FC10 (hounds) recognized breeds list, which is as follows:
Sloughi
Magyar Agar (Hungarian greyhound)
Afghan Hound
Azawakh
English Greyhound
Galgo Español
Irish Wolfhound
Italian Greyhound
Chart Polski (Polish greyhound)
Saluki
Scottish Deerhound
Borzoi
Whippet
There are some Silken Windhounds in Finland, but they're not recognized by the FKC.
I have met some silken windhounds, they show under the rare breed club along with our Long haired whippets. Here is link about the history of the Silken Windhound- www.silkenwindhound.com/history.html
www.silkenwindhounds.org/timeline.html
This link tells a timeline about the Silken Windhounds history. The Finnish Kennel Club is the first FCI club to admit Silken Windhounds is a breed. http://silkkivinttikoira.net/ is the Finnish Silken Windhound Club.
Kerri, do I read right? You have LHW's??
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